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mcummins@netspace.net.au (Marian Cummins) wrote:
>Madhudvisa,
>In article <3q1p6h$prr@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au>, you say:
>> These things (the mind and beyond) are nicely covered in the sixth
>> chapter of the Bhagavad-gita "Sankhya-yoga"
>>
>> It's all there. It's best to read it and then ask more specific
>> questions. I really don't know where to start. So I have included part
>> of the sixth chapter below. I have a spare paperback copy of Srila
>> Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita here that I could mail to you if you don't
>> have it. If you just email me with your postal address I can put it in
>> the "old-fashioned" mail....
>Others may wish for a copy - I have one somewhere, just misplaced
>somewhere on my bookshelves at present. Actually I noticed both an
>abridged version and the Bhagavad-gita As It Is in hard and soft cover at
>the local Crossways where I am currently learning to 'Cook with Kurma' -
>autrhoer of Great Vegetarian Dishes and currently has programme on SBS
>7.00pm Saturdays for anyone interested - though only a few more
>programmes to go, I understand!
Yes I also have had the great pleasure of learning some things about
cooking [and Krishna] from Kurma in the Melbourne temple kitchen. He is
a very expert cook.
>>
>>
>> One must deliver himself with the help of his mind, and not degrade
>> himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and his enemy
>> as well.
>> ``For man, mind is the cause of bondage and mind is the cause of
>> liberation. Mind absorbed in sense objects is the cause of bondage,
>> and mind detached from the sense objects is the cause of
>> liberation.'' (Amrta-bindu Upanisad 2)
>>
>> Therefore, the mind which is always engaged in Krsna consciousness is
>> the cause of supreme liberation.
>>
>> For him who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of friends;
>> but for one who has failed to do so, his mind will remain the greatest
>> enemy.
>>
>> For one who has conquered the mind, the Supersoul is already reached,
>> for he has attained tranquillity. To such a man happiness and distress,
>> heat and cold, honor and dishonor are all the same.
>>
>>
>> A person is said to be established in self-realization and is called a
>> yogi [or mystic] when he is fully satisfied by virtue of acquired
>> knowledge and realization. Such a person is situated in transcendence
>> and is self-controlled. He sees everything--whether it be pebbles,
>> stones or gold--as the same.
>> Book knowledge without realization of the Supreme Truth is useless.
>> This is stated as follows:
>>
>> ``No one can understand the transcendental nature of the name, form,
>> quality and pastimes of Sri Krsna through his materially contaminated
>> senses. Only when one becomes spiritually saturated by transcendental
>> service to the Lord are the transcendental name, form, quality and
>> pastimes of the Lord revealed to him.'' (Bhakti rasamrta-sindhu
>> 1.2.234)
>Snipped most of the 'purports' and all of the ?sanskrit? to conserve bandwidth....
>Whislt this is fine, and I have no real dissention, except sometimes with
>your extrapolation, you still have not actually answered my question.
But will you accept my answer if I answer it... (you have told me
elsewhere you have already some ideas on the subject - I can give you
what is described in the Gita and the Srimad Bhagavatam though.)
>I asked that you distinguish between body, mind, intelligence and spirit,
>which labels you specifically referred to earlier, and whilst you have
>shown how the gita points the way to knowledge of the spirit through
>'intimate' knowledge - knowledge by identity or experience, still I think
>it would be helpful to distinguish these levels, planes, or whatever you
>would like to call them, more distinctly.
The body is quite clear. It is gross matter, earth, water fire and
either. It is temporary and material. It is always changing [from
boyhood to youth to old-age...]
The mind is more subtle. The mind, the intelligence and the false ego
together form the "subtle body" and they carry the soul from one gross
body to the next within the material world. At the time of "death" the
material body rots in the ground but the "subtle" body [mind,
intelligence and false ego] carries the soul to its next body. This
subtle body is also material, but more "subtle". If we want to go back
home, back to Godhead we have to get rid of this subtle body also.
The mind is compared to the driving instrument of the car of the body..
"The individual [soul] is the passenger in the car of the material
body, and intelligence is the driver. Mind is the driving instrument,
and the senses are the horses. The self is thus the enjoyer or sufferer
in the association of the mind and senses"
The mind's business is "thinking, feeling and willing".
"Mind is the center of all the activities of the senses, and thus when
we hear about sense objects the mind generally becomes a reservoir of
all ideas of sense gratification; and, as a result, the mind and the
senses become the repositories of lust. Next, the intelligence
department becomes the capital of such lustful propensities.
Intelligence is the immediate next-door neighbor of the spirit soul.
Lusty intelligence influences the spirit soul to acquire the false ego
and identify itself with matter, and thus with the mind and senses. The
spirit soul becomes addicted to enjoying the material senses and
mistakes this as true happiness." (Srila Prabhupada's purport to
Bhagavad-gita 3.40)
If one purifies his mind, it can instead be used to help us make
spiritual advancement.
"The best course is to divert the mind to the Vedic literature, which
is full of satisfying stories, as in the Puranas and the Mahabharata.
One can take advantage of this knowledge and thus become purified. The
mind should be devoid of duplicity, and one should think of the welfare
of all. Silence means that one is always thinking of self-realization.
The person in Krsna consciousness observes perfect silence in this
sense. Control of the mind means detaching the mind from sense
enjoyment. One should be straightforward in his dealings and thereby
purify his existence. All these qualities together constitute austerity
in mental activities." (From Srila Prabhupada's purport to
Bhagavad-gita 17.16)
"When one is purified by intelligence, he keeps himself in the mode of
goodness. Thus one becomes the controller of the mind and is always in
trance. He is not attached to the objects of sense gratification, and
he is free from attachment and hatred in his activities. Such a
detached person naturally prefers to live in a secluded place, he does
not eat more than what he requires, and he controls the activities of
his body and mind. He has no false ego because he does not accept the
body as himself. Nor has he a desire to make the body fat and strong
by accepting so many material things. Because he has no bodily concept
of life, he is not falsely proud. He is satisfied with everything that
is offered to him by the grace of the Lord, and he is never angry in
the absence of sense gratification. Nor does he endeavor to acquire
sense objects. Thus when he is completely free from false ego, he
becomes nonattached to all material things, and that is the stage of
self-realization of Brahman." (from Srila Prabhupada's purport to
18.51-53)
The business of the intelligence is "accepting and rejecting".
The false-ego is the misidentification of the body as the self.
>>Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita.. We just have to read it.
>'Everything' is rather a strong word - indeed the gita is one of the
>texts which can point the way if we read it - but as is so often the
>case, we are more likely to accept it _after_ we have made some of those
>internal discoveries for ourselves. And I'm sure even you would agree
>that there are other texts which contain more than the 'everything' you
>mention here - for example the Vedas, the Upanashads....
No we accept the Vedic version...
gita su-gita kartavya
kim anyaih sastra-vistaraih
ya svayam padmanabhasya
mukha-padmad vinihsrta
"Because Bhagavad-gita is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead,
one need not read any other Vedic literature. One need only attentively
and regularly hear and read Bhagavad-gita. In the present age, people
are so absorbed in mundane activities that it is not possible for them
to read all the Vedic literatures. But this is not necessary. This one
book, Bhagavad-gita, will suffice, because it is the essence of all
Vedic literatures and especially because it is spoken by the Supreme
Personality of Godhead." (Gita-mahatmya 4)
So it's true, everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita, but we do read
other scriptures because we like to hear about Krishna. That is our
recreation. Materialists are reading so many books, magazines and
newspapers about mundane things and we read so many books about
Krishna.. But still Bhagavad-gita is enough.
>I should really like it if you were able to cite your own expereinces,
>for example, as I think this then makes it easier to follow by example,
>or modelling.
My example is I read the Bhagavad-gita! I find all the answers in
there. I don't need to concoct any new ideas. So if you would like to
follow my example then read the Bhagavad-gita.. It's not an ordinary
book. Every time you read it you get new realization. Every time you
read it it is fresh..
I accept the knowledge coming down throught the disciplic succession
and I present that.. That is the Vedic process. We don't manufacture
our own independent philosophy, we accept Krishna's philosophy and
present that.
>There are for example several levels of mind - to say nothing of say
>unconscious, conscious, supraconscious levels. Intelligence is, I think,
>only one level of mind - mental mind it has been referred to to
>distinguish it from the level of mind which is concerned with body,
>bodily sensations, attempts to gratify bodily needs, drives etc.. but
>still both only levels of mind. Further, I think that 'spirit' actually
>covers several different levels, from the individual soul, to the
>universal or cosmic Self, to the ultimate One/All embracing the whole
>lot.
This is why I was reluctant to directly answer your question, because
it's not a real question. You have already made up your mind about what
you think. So what is the benefit of asking me to tell you what Krishna
said about it...
>I am also amused byt the way you selectively answer queries. For example,
>you still have not said what your own background in math/science is.
We are not obliged to answer everything...
>Whilst this is of course your prerogative, I should be grateful if you
>cvould at least indicate why it is not appropriate for you to talk of
>pewrsonal experience, and to only rely on quotes from a few texts, albeit
>ones which I agree have much to offer.
The subject matter is covered perfectly well in the Bhagavad-gita, you
have the book at your house, it is best if you read it and then ask me
more specific questions. To properly answer the question you have
given me would take a lot of space and I see no point in addressing
such a broad topic in one post.. In summary the matter is simple:
The material body is earth, water, fire, air and either. It is
matter. It is changing all the time.
The subtle body comprises mind, intelligence and false ego. It
carries the soul from one body to the next. So we take our mind,
intelligence and false ego with us to the next body.
The mind has three activities: thinking, feeling and willing.
The intelligence has two activities: accepting and rejecting.
The false ego is the identification of the body as the self, eg: "I
am an Australian man..."
The soul is the "I" the person, the driver.
Thank you very much. Hare Krishna.
Thank you. Hare Krishna!
Madhudvisa dasa
(madhudvisa@krishna.org) /sudarsana
All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!
Sudarsana Home madhudvisa@krishna.org