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Re: The Zonal Acarya System (michael tandy) wrote:

>	Pranamas. Jaya Prabhupada.

  Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to His DIvine Grace 
  A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!

>	I don't want to discuss this, but I feel duty-bound to do so,
>	as I feel you have offended many devotees with these posts.
>	Please don't my defensive statements as offensive.
  It's not my favorite activity either...

> But it is very difficult now because so many
>>  devotees were disappointed by ISKCON after Prabhupada left the planet.

>	Things have to change in this world

  We are not supposed to be in this world. We're supposed to be serving
  Prabhupada and Krishna. For us things don't have to change. We do the
  same things: mangal aroti, chanting more than 16 rounds, following the
  four regulative principles (no intoxiciation, no illicit sex life, no
  meat eating and no gambling), we go on Hari-Nam Sankirtana, we 
  distribute Srila Prabhupada's books, we cook, offer to Krishna and
  distribute as widely as possible sumptuous Krishna prasadam... These
  things never change. Our methods may change, that is another thing, but
  our business is always the same. These are the instructions of Srila
  Prabhupada, and if we want to advance in Krishna consciousness we have
  to please him by following them...

>  , but Srila Prabhupada's
>	teachings should help us to deal with change constructively.
>	Immature devotees cannot do this.

  Adjusting according to time and place is for parahamasas. Not ordinary
  devotees what to speak of immature devotees.

>I was also dissatisfied with
>	some things that occured after Srila Prabhupada's departure,
>	and unlike many critics of his representatives, I was there before
>	he left his physical body as well. So I have first-hand
>	experience of both. But I know for a fact that Prabhupada did
>	not want us to leave ISKCON, even if staying meant difficulty,

  It is a fact and I also want to stay within ISKCON and keep preaching
  despite all the problems but ISKCON won't allow me to... (and I am not
  the only one as you well know. THOUSANDS of sincere devotees who want
  to serve Srila Prabhupada and Krishna have been thrown out of ISKCON
  because they "offended" some "paramahamsa" "acarya". Or because they
  couldn't accept the ISKCON policy [spearheaded by your Tamala Krishna
  Maharaja] of minimizing Srila Prabhupada.

>	for when will there not be difficulty in this material world?

  Yes, it is the nature of the place.

>	If we can cooperate in spite of a difficult situation, that is
>	proof of our assimilation of the Gita; and Srila Prabhupada very

  Unfortunately "we" haven't done that have we? As soon as Prabhupada 
  left [and before he left as he said himself] his disciples were 
  fighting... and they are still fighting...

>	clearly stated that our love for him would be evident by the
>	degree to which we cooperate with each other. Essentially, this
>	was his last instruction. Those who have followed it are making
>	great advancement and have weathered so many tests of maya. 
  Who has followed it? I see very little cooperation in ISKCON...

>	who haven't followed this instruction remain frustrated and
>	unhappy as a result--by leaving ISKCON, they essentially gave up
>	their service, at least to this order, and most of them have also
>	fallen from the high principles that Srila Prabhupada demanded of
>	his disciples. This in itself is very telling.

  Many of the ISKCON devotees in the temples have also fallen from the
  high standards Prabhupada required also BUT THEY STILL PRESENT
  THEMSELVES AS IF THEY WERE FOLLOWING... This is the most disgusting

  It is not only devotees outside the temples who become frustrated and
  unhappy. Many of the temple devotees are also VERY frustrated and
  unhappy. (BTW I am not frustrated and unhappy. I read Srila
  Prabhupada's books, I chant Hare Krishna, I cook and distribute
  prasadam and I preach... that's all, a very simple life. And I am
  always feeling spiritual pleasure. Krishna consciousness is a very real
  thing for me. Everything Srila Prabhupada says in his books works and
  is the absolute truth... I have faced many, many obstacles in my
  preeching but Krishna has always protected me. You may know that the
  devotees in Sri Sri Radha Kalachandji's temple "bashed me up" after the
  Tulasi Aroti one morning because I lead the Mangal Aroti and they
  considered I wasn't qualified to do such a thing... But there was no
  one else there when the curtain opened! "Devotees" have done so many
  things to me but I have faith in Krishna, so whatever Krishna wants I
  will do...)

>>  And the attitudes of many "highly placed" devotees are still much the
>>  same...


>Now there's no leader and a boat without a captain is rather
>>  unsteady.
>	You are fully entitled to your opinions about this, but
>	that is all they are. Thousands of people all over the
>	world disagree with you, and they happen to be pukka vaisnavas
>	who are very tangibly spreading love for Krsna. That is, it
>	is tangible to impartial people.
  If they are capable of spreading love of Krishna why don't they do it! 
  All they do is travel around the world wasting huge amounts of money on
  air fares and they just give the Srimad Bhagavatam class to five or six
  [or one or two!] devotees in the ISKCON temples... Nobody outside 
  ISKCON even knows their names!

>There is really no meaning to our love
>>  for Srila Prabhupada and Krishna unless we do something for them.
>>  Service, engaging our senses in the service of Krishna under the
>>  guidance of the spiritual master is most important.
  Srila Prabhupada wants us to distribute his books and preach to the 
  fallen conditioned souls but ISKCON is now very inward looking. It's 
  more of an internal thing and the book distribution has all but stopped
  [at least in English]. THIS IS THE MAIN PROBLEM... but "No one in this 
  newsgroup is interested..."

>	According to Srila Prabhupada, that service must also be
>	cooperative, and without any hint of a separatist mentality.

  This "seperatist mentality" has been much misused in ISKCON. It means
  to do something separately from the service of the spiritual master and
  Krishna. In your estimation Srila Prabhupada is guilty of having a
  "separatist mentality" because he preached independently of the then
  "authorities", the Gaudiya Math. They may well have criticized him
  using the same arguments you are using against me. But Krishna is in
  our hearts. He knows what is our motivation. So what do you think
  Krishna thought of Srila Parbhupadaa's "separatist mentality"?

>	BTW, how do you propose to serve under the guidance of your guru
>	if who you allege as spiritual master isn't physically present?
  Prabhupada is personnaly present in his books. He said it so many 
  times. I don't know if anything will get through your thick heads...

> "Shelter International" is just me at the moment

>	Anyone else find this dubious?                                      
  We have to start somewhere. Of course I'm not alone. Srila Prabhupada 
  is hepling me, Krishna is helping me...

>>  As far as ISKCON you probably know better than me.

>	As a matter of fact, there are a LOT of people who probably
>	know ISKCON better than you. Who could possibly know ISKCON
>	better than the ISKCON devotees themselves?
  Sometimes if one is very close to something he can't see it at all. The
  eyelid is the closest thing to your eye and you can't see it at all!

>   You might want to
>	listen with an open mind to what they say. It's very reckless to
>	simply postulate they're all a mindless sheep, incapable of
>	considering any of the things you say. 

  There is no consistency in what they say. I can go to your Tamala 
  Krishna Maharaja and he will tell me his story, I can go to our 
  Prabhuvishnu Maharaja in Australia and he will give me his story...
  They all have different stories... And there is no indication they have
  ever considered any of the things I have said...

>  I've heard and also
>	dismissed all of your ritvic theory years ago, and none of it
>	is based on indisputable grounds.

  - My presentation is not about ritvic.
  - What I have presented is Srila Prabhupada's not mine. Everything is
    completely supported by ample evidence from Prabhupada's letters and
    books. It can not be disputed.

> Don't be so shallow. Don't be
>	enamored. It can only appeal to the mind, not the soul.

  I am tired of your shallow arguments which have absolutely no basis.
  They are formulated to support a system which props up unqualified
  people to the position of acaryas who only go on to "initiate"
  disciples and create havoc in their lives. You are trying to support
  this system for whatever personal reasons you may have but there is no
  grounds for supporting such a system...

  I am not interested in this argument as I have said before and
  discussing it with persons such as yourself is a useless exercise... I
  have presented the facts previously and as you have rightly noted
  elsewhere "Nobody in this newsgroup is interested". So I will go on
  chanting Hare Krishna, serving Srial Prabhupada and preaching. I
  recommend you do the same. There is no loss. Everything is auspicious.
  Every book distributed, ever plate of prasadam distributed... This is
  real tangable progress in our spiritual lives... But these nonsense
  discussions are just a waste of time...
>>  All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
>>	JAYA!

                Param vijayate SRI KRISHNA SANKIRTANA!!!

        Srila Prabhupada's transcendental BOOK DISTRIBUTION ki jaya!

                    PRASADAM DISTRIBUTION ki jaya!

                     HARI NAM SANKIRTANA ki jaya!

PS:  I would like to preach in ISKCON, I like the ISKCON devotees and
     miss them. I can never forget the Deities (Sri Sri Radha
     Londonisvara, Sri Sri Radha Gokulananda, Sri Sri Radha Balabha, Sri
     Sri Radha Gopinatha, Sri Sri Krishna Balarama, Sri Sri Radha
     Govadhanadari, Sri Sri Radha Shamasundra, Sri Sri Radha Gokulananda,
     Sri Sri Radha Gididhari, Sri Sri Radha Govinda, Sri Sri Radha
     Gopivalabha, Sri Sri Radha Saradbehari, Sri Sri Radha Kalachandaji,
     Sri Sri Radha Damodara, Sri Sri Rukmini Dwarkadesha, Sri Sri Radha
     Nila Madhava, Sri Sri Radha Rasabihari, Sri Sri Radha Govinda, Sri
     Sri Radha Madhava, Sri Sri Radha Partha Sarity, Sri Sri Krishna
     Balarama, Sri Sri Radha Shamasundra, Sri Sri Radha Paris Isvara, Sri
     Sri Gandhavika Gididhari... (and the Deities who I have served but
     due to my absolute wretchedness have forgotten Their names)

     I am still serving Them but in separating...

  Your servant
  Madhudvisa dasa       .

  (I apologize to anyone I have offended and beg forgiveness. I know that
  all the devotees [within ISKCON and outside] are great souls and I
  hanker for your association. I have been put in a position where I
  can't have your association... I am not alone there are thousands like
  me. I have the ability to speak and present my thoughts and [by Srila
  Prabhupada's and Krishna's mercy] I have been able to remain in Their
  service outside ISKCON. Many devotees cannot. They become overwhelmed
  by maya... So you may say, "Look at the rascal offenders..." But we are
  devotees, we have dedicated our lives to serving Srila Prabhupada and
  Krishna but we have been rejected by ISKCON. This is very unjust.)

Thank you. Hare Krishna!

Madhudvisa dasa       
(     /sudarsana 
All glories to His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada!